Designing in the Wild: The Industrial Design Podcast
Designing in the Wild is the podcast where industrial designers, inventors, and changemakers reveal how they turn messy, real-world constraints into market-ready solutions. Each episode unpacks the mindsets, methods, and aha-moments behind sustainable innovation—whether it’s re-thinking plastics, hacking circular supply chains, or simply sketching faster under pressure. If you’re passionate about design’s role in a resilient future (and can’t resist a good behind-the-scenes story), this is your campfire.
“Real-world design stories for a world that needs better ones.”
Designing in the Wild: The Industrial Design Podcast
#011 Season 2: Jason Belaire - IDSA Chair(2021-2022) | Belworld Creative, INC. Talks of living abroad, childhood abuse, empathy, social projects around the world, and sustainability
In this episode we speak to Jason Belaire about being different, cultural shock, designing amidst new cultures, sustainability, and the need for more to be educated on the direct impact the industrial design profession has on our environment, communities, and thought process.
Hey, what's up, everybody? I know, I know, it's been too long since my last podcast. Well, let me catch you up. on what's been going on. So over the last year and a half, it was a great ride. I started as the industrial design engineering lead for a startup designing vacuum cleaners and vacuum cleaner technology, where I ran the prototyping lab and helped develop some really cool vacuum tech for Hoover in the UK. It was tons of fun, but as you know, when the proverbial startup door closes, others open. So here we are. I've been doing some soul searching and came to the conclusion that I needed to get back to the roots of my design journey, and that is sustainability. I really enjoyed the talks we had in season one, interviewing a myriad of designers, engineers, and thinkers. Sometimes we touch on aspects of greening in the industry or talking through the philosophical need for more inclusive thinking around lifecycle design. It wasn't a focus though. This second season though, I'm getting back to my own personal North Star and turning my direct attention to sustainability within design. We're going to have a lot of fun and get into the nitty gritty of it in these upcoming episodes. So to kick things off, this interview is with none other than Jason Belair, chair of IDSA and much, much more. So look, sit back, relax, and let's go. So
SPEAKER_00:If I can work with you, it's because I've done my due diligence and I feel like there's hope. There's a chance. Otherwise, we are just contributing to the ocean, you know, trash and the landfills and all that stuff. And that's no longer something I really want to partake in or advocate on behalf of.
SPEAKER_02:Hey guys, what is up? Rob Irwin here, back with another episode of Designing in the Wild. And I can't tell you how excited I am to chat with our guest today. His name is Jason Belair. His rap sheet goes on and on. He is currently the chair of 2021-2022 for the Industrial Designer Society of America. He has also worked with high-profile global clients in the outdoor industry, commercial, industrial, equipment, and children's products. He is the creative cultural director at large. He has led national and international product development efforts for innovative and award-winning sleeping bags, backpacks, tents, outdoor furniture, and lighting. He's also a guest judge and juror for numerous competitions within the states and abroad. And we will touch base on that in a little bit. But Jason, thank you so much. I know you are a busy man. We've shifted schedules around a little bit, but I appreciate your time here today.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for having me, Robert. This is awesome. Really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely. So I have to ask out of the gate, how do you find time for all of this? I
SPEAKER_00:don't. I don't know how to say no. And so it gets me into a lot of trouble. And somehow on the opposite side of the that output, I tend to come out, you know, knowing and having a better knowledge base. So I guess I keep doing it always, always at the brink of burnout, but not quite there. So I just keep that as my normal.
SPEAKER_02:Right, right. No, that's totally understandable. So I'm wondering, obviously, design is a huge part and passion of your life. Can you elaborate on the motivation across all of these categories and over time, how you've kind of evolved just at a high level? Initially, maybe we can dig in here in a minute. I'm curious to know kind of those steps that have gotten you to this long rap sheet of amazing stuff that you're working through?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, wow. You know, such a good question. And for whatever reason, I tend to complicate things as much as I can. And so to answer the question... in a simple way is not easy for me. I, I know that for me, what comes to my mind is, you know, I'm a 1980s punk rocker. And so I have always been against the system. I've always been against what mainstream was doing. And yet I always maintained a huge heart with a high level of empathy. So, you know, I see these things that are happening around me and I want to change them. And that leads me down these paths that, uh a lot of people have not had the chance to experience before yeah
SPEAKER_02:so were you born a natural empath or were there mentors or leaders in in your childhood as you grew up that that helped kind of bring this to fruition
SPEAKER_00:that's such a good question like i see other people who i think are empaths and then i think of myself and i don't know if i align with that but i do I do believe that I am to some degree, and I believe that... great way to start this wonderful podcast, but you know, I came from an abusive situation, so it was fight or flight for most of my life. Right. And so you learn how to read people really well because you, you know what the stakes and the consequences are. And I think that has helped me on some levels, but it's also impeded on my own personal growth. So but the, you know, definitely the, always reaching out to people wanting to learn um growing up in a in an environment where my family would host people from all over the world and i would i remember going to grade school and i would tell people oh my gosh like when i come home there's going to be this tall black beautiful african man with a spear and a you know, and a shield and a loincloth. And he's going to be waiting at my house because that's what my parents said. And then I get there and it's a white businessman from South Africa. But regardless, it's like, you know, my mind was always like exposed to different cultures at a very young age, even within that dysfunctionality. So it was a good way to develop duality.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, interesting. So I know we had a bit of back and forth before the interview here, and you mentioned living abroad. Were you influenced at a young age from living abroad? And if so, how did that kind of evolve for you? Did you move around quite a bit, or were you relatively stable up until a certain time?
SPEAKER_00:Good question. I actually, growing up, really did not move much at all. My international global cultural development came from the fact that my family was connected to a church in Houston, Texas that had sponsored basically a music group that would travel the world and sing and play music. And then all of a sudden, this church would have all these people coming back to Houston from all over the world. And so we would host them. And so I grew up with people from all over being in my house and with different languages. And that exposed me and I think grew a certain part and aspect of who I am today or how I wound up being, was influenced by that. And then I moved physically myself for the first time internationally when I was 28, and I moved to Buenos Aires, Argentina. And so while I was there, I was there for about almost seven years. And I can tell you right now that those were the seven best and most difficult years of my life to... be there in a culture that I didn't speak the language to be in a culture that I didn't understand to be newly married to rely on my wife on all aspects of things I mean it was challenging and then at the same time looking back at the United States and questioning why I was thinking the way I was thinking when all these people around me were so different
SPEAKER_02:oh yeah that the cultural shock, even in the, I mean, I would consider the 20s still a nascent phase of the mind, right? You're still evolving theories and philosophies and trying to absorb new things and being, as you mentioned, growing up in a very curious state of mind in general. Yeah, I can definitely understand how that would be an interesting moment in your life. I want to go back for a minute to a couple things you mentioned about growing up and living in a home where you were exposed to a diverse background of people. And the reason why I want to do that is because I think that as an industrial designer, designer, creator for that matter, it is imperative to not only... come with your own perspectives, but have a relative empathy to put yourself in other people's shoes. And I'm wondering if there's a time or a moment where these things clicked for you when you were younger. I'm sure it's probably maybe more of a hindsight thing, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. Do you have any thoughts on how you evolved or how that was more of an impact in your life growing up?
SPEAKER_00:Um, well, so for me, I believe that, um, you know, growing up and having all kinds of emotions where I am anticipating, like I mentioned before this, you know, this, this wonderful black African, you know, indigenous type person going to be at my house. And then I'm surprised that it's not, um, it's a white businessman, but also, you Being given gifts from all over the world for most of my childhood and having a house that's been decorated with all kinds of different art pieces or different artifacts or whatnot, I think that really exposed my thinking and my understanding that there's something bigger out there than what I'm surrounded by, sort of the bubble that I live in. And I really think that that's been very advantageous to grow up really feeling that empathic sort of approach to just living, not knowing, like you mentioned before, not really fully embracing and understanding why I'm doing it. I'm not necessarily cognizant of that reasoning, but I'm just experiencing it. And I think that... Knowing that there's people out there with different languages and different customs and smells and whatnot living in my house, that helps to broaden your senses subconsciously. And then I think when you get older and you start to rationalize those things, it becomes more important to deep dive into those experiences after the fact. You grow from that. So I think that answers your question to some degree, right?
SPEAKER_02:No, yeah, absolutely. So these things kind of were obviously influential growing up, and as you grew into young adulthood and you moved to Argentina, it sounded like you had a bit of a cultural shock with the language barriers and things like that. Did it offer an opportunity, though, for your mind to... to kind of obviously stretch itself, but grow into kind of continuing to see the world in a different way, or the differences, rather, of the culture there versus in America. Can you elaborate on that a little?
SPEAKER_00:Yes. And I do want to take one little step back and reference that. I remember in high school, that's when you really started to meet people that were in exchange programs. from around the world. And I found that all my good friends were from different countries. And my first girlfriend and first wife was actually from Argentina. My senior year is when I met her. So like being exposed to culture and always gravitating to it and to different, you know, almost like a way of defending because they were the outliers, you know? So now to be put, like to put myself in Argentina where I'm the outlier is, And I'm the one that has been indoctrinated into thinking that, you know, USA number one, we're the best. And here I am completely defenseless and I'm unable to do anything. And living in a construct where, you know, you would go to the store and they would ask you, do you want to pay in cash or do you want the invoice? If you pay in cash, you pay less. You pay less because they don't pay the taxes because it's all cash, right? And then you get wound up in this situation where the actual government is completely unstable and corrupt. And so it permeates throughout everything that you do. And so having been in that context and living in it with the language barrier is very, very difficult and very hard. And I had to battle some real demons as a result of that because of being... in a situation all my life where I had to control myself and control things. Otherwise there was havoc, you know, and then here I am in this culture where I can't control a damn thing. And, and it's, and, and it's all around me all the time. And so, you know, being involved in that constant state of, and in all my, my wife's friends, and for the record, this is actually my second wife who was an Argentinian was when we moved down there. And so the circle of friends is, were always like, you know, I was down there when 9-11 hit and I was teaching in an international school. So I had that kind of trauma that was experienced and also a responsibility for all the children who were part of embassies, you know, the children of embassy workers and stuff. And so all those experiences are translatable to, you know, understanding myself and understanding how I interpret people and culture and why... you know, language and linguistics is so important. I mean, understanding alone that English is, you know, kind of Germanic in nature. And so masculine and feminine, you know, verbs and pronouns and all that are so different than Spanish. And so you're translating real time, trying to communicate in an authentic way, things that, you know, we took for granted growing up learning English, right? Right. Or didn't even know, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yes, exactly. I'm immediately drawn to the thought of how impactful this must have been for your approach to design thinking and problem solving. Is there anything that comes to mind around this as you've, I don't know, we'll speak a little bit later, as you mentioned when we were talking before about kind of thinking at higher levels, higher levels of thinking, but did, did, Do you believe that this had a good impact on your processing and problem-solving approach?
SPEAKER_00:I would say unequivocally, 100%, yes, it has. And the reason for that is because so much of what we learn here in the United States, the way that we're trained is based on what's available and what we have access to in a first world nation and culture is everything. When you go to a third world country and they are having to be creative and problem solve with basically no resources, you start to understand and appreciate tremendously the level of creativeness that comes from that. I've noticed you go to a doctor today here and you're in and out in 15 minutes and they prescribe you some medication. In Argentina and other places that I've traveled and spent time in, the doctors don't have the training and access to all the technology. So they have to ask hard questions and deep questions and they have to spend time really you know, digging through that, that influences you as a person when you're surrounded by a culture that has to do that because they don't have access to, you know, world-class technology, let's say. And consequently, some of the most creative and influential medical breakthroughs and like LASIK surgery, all these things, they came from people who didn't have access to a lot of that technology. They created things with, you know, very minimal resources. opportunities and resources. So that really affected me. And the design thinking, I'll give you a really good example too, Rob. So I spent time going to Northern Argentina, which is a little town called Aguaday. And it's really close to the border of Bolivia and Argentina. So it's about a three, three and a half hour plane ride and about a six to seven hour bus ride. And we're talking, Bus without real air conditioning and the big potholes and the slowing down and sometimes protests, anti-American protests. And you finally reach your destination, which is a little town. And we're basically there because we're trying to elevate and help an orphanage that we decided we wanted to be connected to and to support. And so we're building new kitchens for them. We're spending time with kids and whatnot. And you start to see how the kids are treated and why they become orphans. And the reason is because the culture, first of all, it's not as though the people are not intelligible. It's that with the limited resources, they try to extend the amount of resources and make it last longer. So what do they do? Women will often, and this is more so 15 years ago when I was there, but they would split a birth control pill into quarters, and so four of them would take it. And of course, that's not going to function or work. And so they get pregnant. Well, then that guy leaves, and a new guy comes in, and the new guy disowns the first guy's child. And so that child sometimes would be found in a doghouse, chained up, heartbreaking, would be kicked out on the street. It's horrible, right? So I always maintain, yeah, read Dieter Rams, the 10 principles, read anything about Apple that you can. But if you're not out there experiencing life and seeing that kind of stuff, your approach to design thinking is formulaic. It's based on what first world profit driven models want. And that is where I think one of the greatest values that I have and can contribute to the world today is because of being limited in resources and seeing things that most people can't imagine seeing.
SPEAKER_02:Wow. Yeah. Yeah, that's definitely... And I really appreciate your philosophy here because I've had a similar kind of echo with sustainability. I've done some traveling... and just seeing shorelines riddled with trash and riddled with just the detritus off of ships and things like that. And I don't want to pivot away from the humanitarian aspect that you're talking about right now, but just to kind of follow along in that level of thinking. I think it just, again, comes back to that aspect where you're involved with communities you're involved with collaboration you see the thing with your own eyes um and and it moves you um i'm wondering jason what at what age were you so you moved down argentina you said your early 20s mid-20s maybe uh you said you were teaching um when you when you took this trip um to see and to build these these new facilities, what came of it? Like what, within your own mind, but then also physically, how did that kind of unfold?
SPEAKER_00:Well, so I'm no longer in touch with any of that, really. So I don't necessarily know as of today. But, you know, like recent history would say that the efforts that we put into that were very gratifying. very important for the local community to know that there's people out there that really care. And for the record, Americans are really good at going in and exploiting people and resources around the world. And then we leave whenever it's no longer necessary. And so some of those revolts and some of those anti-American protests would happen while we were up there. And a couple of times, one time in particular, they blocked the roads and we couldn't drive back down to catch our flight, et cetera. It was pretty scary, right? But I think that the children that we were able to impact and love and hold, and I personally wanted to adopt. And unfortunately, the person who ran the orphanage ended up being very corrupt and was very much about the you know, power and realize that by her holding those children and keeping, you know, for herself, it gave her more power. And so those kinds of things, I think, ended up inevitably destroying, potentially, the, you know, the efforts that we put into building all that. Now, I can, I would like to think that, you know, I painted, you know, wall size murals, For the kids, it's been untouched for that long. It's probably not there anymore, but I'd love to think that it's still there and there's still energy that is produced when a child sees something like that. And I still hope that it has some kind of a positive effect on the children who do remember those experiences. Because we did go in there out of love. We went there because our hearts were in the right place. But all in all, I don't know if that, you know, humanity is kind of messed up. And I could totally see that, you know, all those efforts have basically been forgotten, except for me and in my mind and in my heart. You know, I still live it on a regular basis, the positive. Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I can't help but think that, you know, through all the... the teachings and readings of whether it's philosophy or travel that I've had personally affect me, you know, I can't help but think and, you know, hope, probably know that, you know, we walk our own path in life and some things we will experience, some things we will not. And the way in which culture or society that we grow up in reveals the methods or reveals the truths, if you will, for its own people ultimately shape how you create a family, how you create products, how you go about helping others. It's a bit of a hurdle, I think, from a design perspective to want to be a better designer, to practice techniques and humility for others, but if you don't have the first person perspective of that particular target group or users or people who need you to create a thing that's better for them, or just to be there to be a helping hand, you'll never be able to get there. Were there other experiences after this in your life that you took inspiration and internalization of these experiences and kind of molded them into kind of your influence within the design world?
SPEAKER_00:I would say yes. One of the things that I did was I was an avid mountain climber and I while living in Argentina, I was able to convince at the time a good friend of mine who was the medic, the U.S. medic for all the Southern Cone for the embassies. And so he was a very important doctor. And we met because his son had died in Yosemite while climbing, saving his friend's life. And it was over Curry Village when the apron cracked and crashed. And Anyway, he basically saved his friend's life who was on the wall while he was down belaying, and he had... boulders the size of cars crush him. And when they finally pulled the rocks off, they saw that he was still holding a proper belay. So Peter Terabush is his name. And it's really phenomenal. And his father, Dr. Jim Terabush, is a very good friend of mine. And so we decided to do something crazy. And we put together a joint expedition between the Argentine military and the U.S. Embassy. And we climbed Aconcagua. And, you know, it's odd, but I think about because of my involvement with IDSA and the awards programs that I've, you know, seen and, you know, helped organize whatnot. Really, what's fascinating is that there is, you know, the companies and the firms that are winning the most are the ones that have the most diversity on their team.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And when I was, you know, this is where that servant leadership component to my leadership style really came about was climbing in a scenario where, you know, you're with six Argentinian military people. One is the leader of the climb and he's not even a military person. And then you've got all six of the U.S. embassy or U.S. present people to make this expedition. And what we had to do to overcome that, culture, overcome language, overcome sexism, ageism. All those things helped me sort of subconsciously, I think, to really be and approach life in my own personal way of thinking and psychology, which therefore the output would be my design thinking or human-centered design approach is influenced from a further, deeper kind of approach than what's maybe surface-related. So those kinds of things were examples. I took a sailboat from from Argentina all the way to Rio de Janeiro and we almost died. We were in like 20, 25 foot swells and, you know, we almost capsized and it was just an amazing experience. It's a great weight loss program for those who really want to. do so by throwing up a lot um you know things like that uh the more extreme exposures to different uh situations i've had the greater my level of understanding and ability to communicate and talk and share about my own self comes about
SPEAKER_02:yeah it's um It's a process of shedding the fear through experience. You've done a lot of work in the outdoor industry, and it seems to me that nature is also a very big part of your growth and your growing process, and maybe even a part of leveraging introspection for yourself out in nature. And at what point were you like, oh, I'd really love to design this thing? Was there a moment where you're like, you know, one of the clamps or bolts when you were climbing or a tent just didn't last that you're like, I could design something so much better and then kind of went that way? Or how did that unfold?
SPEAKER_00:When I was going back to... Argentina actually. So, so my, my schooling, my education was, um, I went to the art Institute like you, but I, I graduated with the associates degree back in 92. And, um, and then I, I was able to work in other industries, but I was always outdoorsy and out, you know, doing things outdoors. Some, you know, side note, my, my great grandfather ran a, uh, a, a duck, a very famous, um, duck, um, what do you call that? Camp, you know, down in Louisiana where people from all over the world would travel to just be able to hunt. So it was a very well-known place. So I grew up like hunting and being outdoors as well. Now, and appreciating nature, right? And then I'm growing out and I'm, being involved in the industry, uh, because of my passions and because of, like you said, being outdoors and wanting to know and, um, and protect that, which is, you know, so precious, uh, you know, like side note again is, um, it's, it's not easy to answer these questions for me because my mind starts to do that shotgun effect. As soon as you ask a question and now I got to pick and choose, what is it that really I want to say, but you know, I, I grew up living in National Forest, and I had to walk a half an hour to get to my bus. I've had situations where, you know, because of some of the hardships that I had growing up, I would disappear for a day and get lost in the woods. And so it was a refuge for me. You know, it was super important to have access to that. And I'm very thankful for that. I think that really helped mold me who I am. And then growing into having done design work, having worked on some things that were pretty notable, and then moving to Argentina. And then while there, climbing Aconcagua, and then I would bring groups of kids that was at the school that I was teaching at, and I would take them to the Andes, and I would teach them how to do basic climbing and mountaineering. All those things were really what defined my heart's desire to be in the industry of outdoors. But it was never really about a product that failed. It was more about something that always... was always a part of who I was through, you know, a manifestation of needing to be healthy and needing to find peace and health, you know, wholeness. So it wasn't, it really wasn't driven by that kind of quintessential, hey, there's a problem that I need to solve. And therefore I all of a sudden became, you know, a designer in this. It was more of a, when I got back to the States, You know, I went back to school at the Art Institute because I had so many years of experience prior to that. It just took a year to get my bachelor's. And then before I graduated, I was invited to design up at Mountain Smith, which is a brand in Golden, Colorado. And and then before I knew it, I was doing most of the heavy lifting of all the design. And then before that, you know, I was kind of courted to work with a company called American Recreation Products and help kind of build their Boulder office. And it was just, you know, it was always about of just being able to connect to something that I knew would bring peace and refuge to all other people. And then, of course, in the midst of that, there's products that need to be designed and innovative and, you know, and grow.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I wonder, so were you building teams at this point when you said you pivoted over into Boulder? Building design teams, building, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. It was a slow growth process because it was about, you know, the whole CEO culture is such that you see people, you know, a CEO comes in, and especially if it's a company that's owned by private equity. But in this case, before private equity took over and merged, we were independent, but we were all in one building. And so we kind of pinged off of each other. And then as time went by, there was a merger acquisition and then they saw me as being a good leader. And so then I started to grow up into that position and I was building teams and, you know, working across, you five, six brands. Some were private label as well as our own proper brands. And it was right when the 2008 crash hit. So I was very fortunate that they held on to me and that I was able to help design and build product that really was compelling to the bottom line in particular, as well as winning some awards. But yeah, the team aspect was really important. And that is really... huge because emotional intelligence unknown to me was something that I had to work on during that time. And it was something that, you know, for team building purposes. And then I was really, I was balancing that out with the servant leadership concepts, similar to like Sir Ernest Shackleton's, you know, the way that he would...
SPEAKER_02:For those who aren't familiar with it, can you elaborate a little bit for a moment on the servant leadership principles?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, absolutely. And it's basic terms. It's not about a top-down approach. And it's not so much about a bottom-up approach to managing systems or people or teams. It's about everybody pitching in. and recognizing that we all have an opportunity and a place where we need to step in and do things. And if you are somebody who is like when I was head of design for these brands in Boulder, the idea was it's not that I'm head of design and you're less than. It's about I would never put myself above anybody. I would always equalize myself, and then we would together work on things. And through that effort, you grow, you know, it's like all ships rise, you know, type concept. And so the servant leadership is really about recognizing that it's about the experience. It's about understanding that there's a greater cause out there. It's not just about, you know, the bottom line and profitability or, you know, trying to meet these guidelines or deadlines. It's about, you know, how are we really seeing each other in the midst of this? And am I coming, am I able to meet you where you're at? And then as a result, we together grow so that's the servant leadership Alan Greenspan I think I might be getting the name wrong there's a green in there somewhere but he really brought that to corporate America and then later you'll see like with Serena Shackleton who was a great explorer polar explorer Um, he's very well known because, uh, his, uh, ship, the endurance was, uh, crushed by ice and all 22 or 26 men, um, were stranded in Antarctica for two years and none of them died. They, they all survived and they all say it was because of his leadership. And so
SPEAKER_02:it's a crazy story. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It is a crazy for anybody who would like to learn that really worth, uh, studying up on. It's beautiful.
SPEAKER_02:I agree. You bring up a really, really, really important point I've found and echo the same sentiments with. And that is, in the most productive teams that I've ever been a part of, they have always almost mostly been flat. And that is to say, the ideas that win move forward. That is to say, You don't care whose idea it was, who brought this thing to the forefront, who didn't, et cetera, et cetera. It was always a yes and in building upon idea generation and product development or just development in general within a team that ebbed and flowed between people to create the best thing possible. It wasn't the old thinking of, you know, we have this triangle and here's the workers down here and then there's kind of like the managers and then the, you know, and somebody at the top is going to kind of dispel this kind of awe-inspiring, you know, idea and everyone just has to execute that regardless of anyone else's involvement in evolving that idea. And I'm wondering if you could speak a little bit more to how you have you mentioned emotional um uh what was the eq uh emotional quotient
SPEAKER_00:intelligence
SPEAKER_02:emotional intelligence yeah yeah um i'm wondering if you can elaborate on um any examples of working with teams at a level where everyone is contributing everybody is a contributor regardless and and and maybe a particular project or outcome that comes to mind to you
SPEAKER_00:i would say that um What's interesting is like if I was to look back about my during my tenure for when I had teams because I left corporate in 2010 and I created my own consultancy. And so I've been basically an independent, you know, sole proprietor since then. But the whole idea of emotional intelligence is, you know, you've got your IQ, the intelligence quotient, which is science is saying is something that you're born with. You could read a thousand books, but that doesn't affect your IQ. Um, you get more knowledge, but it doesn't affect your ability to learn or your ability to, you know, to sort of interpret knowledge. It's, it's a fixed kind of, um, sit, you know, uh, mindset, if you will. And then EQ is the, is one thing that we all have the ability to work on and, and, and grow, um, and enhance. And what I've found is that with, um, with emotional intelligence in particular, it starts with us individually. It starts with a person who is realizing that, hey, why am I triggered? Why am I feeling the way I'm feeling? Why am I responding to this person the way I'm responding? And most companies, especially back in the day, right, when I was heavily involved in teams, it was never really understood or impressed upon. Now, so it does become more, it is something that's more important. But how do you work through people's, you know, their lives? their dysfunctions and their, you know, the areas of conflict and friction. And when you work through that... The
SPEAKER_02:emotional entanglement.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, right. And even somewhat leaving emotion out... And having a conversation without that emotion obviously can bring a lot of fruit and success. So working in teams, that's when I had started to invest in that. I started to see that a lot of people around me were listening more intently to what I had to say because the language and the words that I chose to use as a conscious effort as opposed to before my EQ development, which was know very much uh emotionally driven and you know the punk rocker like hey f you you know this is yeah yeah you know it's like uh it stops it stops you and and helps you realize that you need to really um offer up yourself and and sort of um stop the areas that you are contributing in a negative way and then people start to see that and want to respond differently So there are opportunities where I have been able to execute that, especially at the level of the IDSA aspect of my volunteer career. But when I go back in time and I look at the projects that I've worked on, it's always been when people are around me and they hear me talk. they feel like it's safe. They feel like it's easy to have a conversation and that releases them from holding on and feeling like, hey, this is my one and only idea. I have to hold on to this or that kind of competitive nature, which is also good, but it's like the fluidity of relationship within a dynamic like that grows and you do become a more effective team So unfortunately, I don't have like a quintessential aha moment of like, this is what happened. But anytime you know that there's areas where there's resistance, that becomes an area of opportunity to not only grow your own emotional intelligence, because you're saying I'm consciously going to connect to this situation, and this situation might be really hard and might conjure up some difficulties, but it's what's best for the team, right? And then everyone who is around you wants to be involved in that. And it becomes a much better opportunity and output.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah, well, that's really inspiring. And the EQ, I'm guessing, is part of the higher levels of thinking and approach. And when you bring this kind of influence to an organization, what things come... to mind that you've experienced that organizations are doing unwittingly that slow or stifle the process or progress of this kind of design thinking?
SPEAKER_00:Well, first of all, I think at its core root, EQ and your own personal development is going to inevitably allow you to have greater empathy. That empathy is going to I think drastically changed the way that you look and see and interpret research and data. Because if you don't understand why you do the things you do, then you're kind of in a bubble. And that's where most organizations and companies tend to be is, you know, they've created this bubble and you come into the bubble. You want to be a part of a tribe and you want to connect and you want to do good things. And you somehow lose the fact that you can also be very critical and you should be critical with your thinking. And, you know, you don't have to be a jerk about it, but you need to be critical. And so, you know, people are often, you know, organizations in particular have just they've developed systems that can't be broken unless there's great control. you know, unless there's a great upset or some real, something almost drastic that needs to happen. I mean, it's the whole, you know, adage of, you know, you're, you're not cold until the water recedes to your toes and you feel it, but you, but you see the water, you see it coming, you see it coming, but it isn't until it touches you that you finally say, Oh my God, like I need to look at this differently. And I think a lot of organizations do that. So as you When you opened up today and you said creative cultural director at large, which is one of my titles, I have many titles, but that one to me is really important because I don't think there's enough people out there that are auditing other companies and looking at their creative and cultural setups and processes and understanding how psychology and emotional intelligence can enhance a lot of that. And so what you do is, I mean, why would a company ever change when the CEO, which by the way, normally CEOs do score lowest on emotional intelligence, because they typically need a different mindset because they are directly connected to and have a fiduciary responsibility to the stakeholders. And as a result of that, they sometimes lose track. And so the bubble starts there and it kind of encapsulates the rest of the company. And most companies that move beyond that do the leaders do practice servant leadership as a side note there. But it is really hard to work with companies, I actually, you know, talking to you right now, Rob is wonderful, but I also have to sort of simultaneously be cautious because I'm the chair of IDSA. And I need to be able to be authentic to myself. But I also need to understand that when people are listening to the words that I'm speaking at some point in, you know, during this podcast and when it's released they're going to interpret that information and I need to know that my voice even though it's an independent voice it does reach out to the design community in ways that I kind of understand in ways I don't but but when you look at the whole dynamic of of you know capitalism and how it was originally designed to be a dynamic system not a static and not something it was supposed to be equitable it was supposed to you know have all these wonderful things and we've created something that's not. And so you can't just change. You can't just come in and alter the system when there's so much money involved. And you asked a good question about startup culture. And I think that's one big reason why the startup culture is so prevalent, why crowdsourcing is so important, because we intuitively know that there's something that needs to change and isn't. And so now we've been given this opportunity to move forward with exploring and experiencing things and showing the world that, hey, this is my idea. And then they get to vote on it. And if they vote on it and they give you the funding, you get to go to the next step. So, you know, it's fascinating how human nature seems to try to, you know, in their own way, they try to create change within their culture. unsuccessfully, and so they're driven to do things that are outside of that, which would be like a crowdsourcing situation or starting up a new company altogether, which inevitably they can fall victim and prey to because they haven't really done the proper work on themselves specifically to be the kind of leader that's required. They just know that they want to exercise something that they couldn't do in their corporate jobs.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah, you know, I obviously, I don't want to put you in any sort of negative context or position here. And I'm in a relatively similar boat doing this podcast and speaking my mind about things. And, you know, as a designer, we have to ride kind of both sides of the wave, right? It is challenging to want to change things and evolve things faster than some... some organizations can change, maybe even if they want to internally. There are these historical operational provenance that has been baked into the workings of what they create. And trying to be Trying to change things as a designer from the inside, it's a daunting task and there are stakeholders involved outside of your purview and perspective when you come to the table with new ideas and having that emotional quotient can help you along the way. You don't necessarily have to be kind of screaming from the mountaintop and jumping ship and completely disassociating yourself as a designer to do some other crazy thing. I think your mind is important in the process of this change and my mind and all the designers out there wanting to influence things for the better. And I definitely agree with you that there are intricacies within a startup that allow for this free thinking, divergent, chaotic approach to problem solving. And its relative size and scope allows it to be super nimble. And when you have... great idea you know maybe you get absorbed by one of these larger companies or you don't but at the same time being a part of these uh smaller nascent startup teams is super exciting i think for any designer out there who's listening to this particular show you know i think the takeaway for me and maybe jason you could speak to this as well but be a part join a small team get in a get into a larger team, go to a startup, go to, you know, bounce around, experience just like Jason has the cultural aspects, just as you would or should do within the capitalistic, you know, teams and organizational perspectives, because it allows you to see different leadership principles come to fruition or come to light for yourself. And you can take those things along with you in your journey to become you know, the chair of IDSA or, you know, be the creative cultural director as you have, Jason. I think your upbringing has really helped to shape a lot of your direction and involvement with these great areas. So I've been recently asked to be a juror for this year, next year, volunteering for the Idea Awards competition. And I guess... What takeaways do you have that maybe could help me be a better judge, and what things and criteria do you look for? Obviously, it probably floats within category, but how do you approach judging and being a juror amidst a myriad of these new ideas and concepts that come about?
SPEAKER_00:um you know that's a really great question because at first you're super honored i mean i haven't even been uh like asked to be a judge for the id awards uh for my own own organization uh and so uh you know one day i might be but uh in the meantime what i look at is and i think i'm hoping that you and i will align with this i'm pretty sure we will but you know i'm quite honestly tired of doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. I'm tired of seeing if you get more, the more product that you actually submit, the greater the chances are of you winning. The fact that a lot of times marketing teams are the ones that are promoting this because it's a strategy which will inevitably help drive better sales or give them a step up over their competition. So as a judge, I look at some of those things and some of the protocols, some of the inner workings, and I look for areas of opportunity to change things. I know there's been talk within certain organizations and award programs for the need to really spread out the criteria and spread out the areas of topics to include things about sustainability. Is this something that could also be awarded a circular design kind of approach or cradle to cradle? Those are the things that are hard because a lot of money is put into these award programs and it sustains a lot of organizations. And so you want to be honest and say, as long as we're looking for innovation, it is an actual product that functions and works or whatnot. I think the more critical you are as a juror going into a situation about those things, the greater the outcome. Even if you can't create a change like you maybe want to, it's still another voice that's echoing and maybe validating what has been said up to that point. And I believe... For me, some of the areas that I've been able to do both internationally and here with judging, those are things that you look at. When you go overseas and you go to Asia and you're looking at a design competition, and it's open to the world, you see the difference between actual Asian design thinking and the sort of stereotypical French, European, Italian, American, whatever. And you have to be able to use certain optics to appreciate what and why and how this design came about. And if If there's a person, if there's a Taiwanese student or somebody who's really done something that is kind of abnormal for what that culture normally does, that's worthy of noting. But we are oftentimes taught that if it's not the... you know, has the Swiss cross on it, then it might not be as good or valued. And so you got to weigh that and, um, you know, just continue to, uh, put yourself out there, know that almost everything that we do is a bubble and you're, you're being given this gift of coming in as an outsider, looking at this saying, Hey, did you think about this? And can we alter and, and create a better experience, you know, when it pertains to this criteria under this particular category? So I have to say somewhat neutral on that topic, but I can tell you that that's what I do is I authentically look at it, analyze it, do my due diligence, and then jump in and say, hey, great, look, there's areas of opportunity.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. No, I appreciate your feedback there. I don't want to give my hand away either as far as my perspectives on things and how I might approach things. judging but you know i do think that as an example like uh this is going to seem totally non-sequitur but i'll bring it full circle it's like you know the and this isn't within the realm of sustainability it's like um the supply chain has been built up so much for for instance cutting down hardwood trees and making four by eight sheets of plywood and that's like i don't know you can get up sheet of plywood now it's it's it's been it's risen since but you know 50 bucks let's call it um And those trees took 25 plus years to grow. Now on the flip side of that, we have bamboo, which makes an amazing plywood, or material for that matter, to make products and a myriad of things. And some of those species grow two feet in a day. But because we don't have the supply chain historically built up, around the distribution and culling of these particular resources, a sheet of plywood made of bamboo can be upwards of over$300. And it just brings to light how material choices in the design process really matter in the way that we shapeshift the future, the way that we shapeshift and evolve the way that goods and services are made and created and brought to people. And yeah, I think that there's a ton of perspective that can be brought to the field of design because at the front end, as you know, most of the embodied energy and waste that is generated usually happens at the nascent stages of design because all of those decisions have been made, right, on the front end.
UNKNOWN:Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and it's tough. I think, and I don't know what your perspective is on this. I'd be curious to hear what your thoughts are from what you've been seeing recently from different schools of thought on teaching industrial design and how some areas we're falling short and some areas we are excelling, if you have any thoughts or examples of that.
SPEAKER_00:Wow, so... there are a myriad of examples. There are so many examples of, you know, academic, the academic culture and systems are not immune to, you know, being based on profitability constructs and needing to, you know, meet numbers and deadlines, you know, like everything else. And they also to some degree are behind technology. They're behind the times when it comes to, um really embracing what is current culture and what where are we going future tense so but what i find interesting rob is that there again you've got for me what i have to do is i always have to take everything down to sort of the human level and i think that humans in particular like today's students the ones that make it to rhode island school design or to Parsons or Pratt or, you know, Art Center or whatever, CCA, these guys, particularly these students, are ones that the teachers or profs or professors are really, they're not easy. They don't really let you get away with a lot, and you have to earn the right to be there. Now, you take away the top five, six schools, And you kind of deal with a different stratosphere of education. And they're trying to be also as relevant as the top tier. And so they do implement programs. They do implement different kinds of opportunities to learn UX, UI, whatnot. Excuse me. Pardon me. The... And so what you're seeing is that there's a lot of opportunity there, but even the professors are somewhat tied. Their hands are tied, and they can only do a certain amount. And then I remember putting on a conference in San Jose, and I had a number of schools come and talk about the future of design education. And so this was 2014, I think. And I had, at the time, the dean of the D school, uh come and talk and um so you had like two people prior to that that had these amazing you know pictures and examples of how great their program is and what they do really well, which is great and needed. And then you have somebody that's from an institution that is way out of the box thinking, saying, okay, these other two guys are kind of, they're already obsolete. They're obsolete. We're not looking at education in those terms anymore. Like what we're striving for is rather than having a school of industrial design, or architecture or medicine or whatever, it's a school of mission-based constructs. So what does it look like to go into this silo that is about something you are emotionally drawn to? And once you're inside that, you start to feel and understand what it is you can do to contribute to making this thing better. That's a very, very different way of dealing with education. And it's a threat. to a lot of other institutions that can't pivot and do that. And so what happens is you see pop-up institutions or pop-up schools and experiences that will offset what bureaucratic systems can't do or do well. And I think that this is a great opportunity that we're in today to look at that whole system and say, is tenure that important? Does someone who has never really worked in the profession really earn the right to be teaching in a space and in a place and getting a salary when someone else who has more relevant information and experiences can come in and treat and just bring a whole new dynamic? And what would that look like? And it's hard. I know it's hard to do that, but I think that you know, like Einstein, we can't just keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. And these tiny little nudges of, you know, let's implement this. Let's implement a sustainability class. But the whole system in its entirety is not really functioning correctly. So what does that look like to be able to go in and change that? And, you know, like you'd mentioned earlier about startups and about awards and programs, it's something that I think is really... crucial to the conversation and i i don't pride myself but i kind of do i think i get less work than other people because i'm so critical and i look and i i it's like if you if i can work with you it's because i've done my due diligence and i feel like there's hope there's a chance otherwise otherwise uh we are just contributing to the ocean you know trash and the landfills and all that stuff and that's no longer something i really want to partake in or advocate on behalf of. And so, you know, that means that I'm the outlier and that means oftentimes people don't want to have that conversation because it's going to be too disruptive and that means less profit and, you know, all that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_02:Um, wow. Yeah. Jason, uh, you're, you're, uh, you're tugging at my heartstrings here because that's exactly, uh, the angle in which I have tried to direct my own efforts in industrial design. Of course, sometimes you do have to pay the bills and make things happen, but I think that as long as your heart and pursuits for the most part are in the right place and trying to move that needle to create a better world for our children, create a better world for just everything, all the ecosystems, et cetera. I think it's a noble pursuit. And I think this is why I really love industrial design. I think it has evolved. As you kind of alluded to when you were talking about the startup secondary schooling, I think industrial design has evolved from being just a mass-produced goods maker or creator to forcing the hand and mind to think about user experience, user interfaces, interaction. And I think to be competitive in the design world now, you really have to have an eye to a number of these facets within the kind of construct of the user, right, for the thing. So I want to be sensitive and respectful of your time, Jason. I really, really do appreciate your time with me today. Before I let you go and have you tell people where to find you or where to keep up to date with things in your world, is there something or anything that's come to mind or that you have on your mind that we didn't touch base on that you'd love to chat about?
SPEAKER_00:Wow. You know, well, there's a lot of things. I mean, this is a conversation, and I think I can sense, because you and I are aligned, that we could have cocktails and really go at this for a very long time, which is really important to me. I think that, again, I think it's important to reemphasize about how we obtain and grow our knowledge base. For the readers or for the listeners, there's a... number of really good reads out there that I think are paramount to not only our own ability to be better as people but also to have a greater impact in a culture that maybe and start a culture that doesn't exist within our companies and corporations but one of them is a big one is designs for the pluriverse by Arturo Escobar that is It's the kind of book where, at least for me, I'm going to have to read it two or three times to really get everything out of it that I possibly can. I wrote to the author and I explained how wonderful his book is and that I wanted to invite him to talk at a conference that I was putting on. It didn't work out, but the idea of having somebody who's a Colombian who's educated in the States really look at the way we do things and point out that one of the biggest... I love the fact that, Rob, you're excited about industrial design, and yet the duality is that it's our profession that's fucking up the world. It's our profession that's putting all that trash out there, right? So the idea of saying, what is the balance? What is the gray area and areas of opportunity? This is a great book for that. Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez. She's a Brazilian lady who moved to the UK. And it's basically data bias in a world designed for men. I think digging deeper into DEI Understanding why and how white man has created systems and for what purpose and what was the motivating factors that started and initiated that is super important for designers to grasp and to hold. Again, not just reading the quintessential books of design and designers, but digging into areas that we normally don't dig into. Of course, that would include EQ. There's a really great book to Living Between Worlds, and it's by James Hollis. He's a PhD, but he really digs into the sort of esoteric and the ability to say and reflect on who and how we are today and why we ended up being this way. Innovation by Design by Thomas Lockwood and Edgar Papke. That is a great book. It's really understanding how design culture can be created and how that culture translates into success. And so like PepsiCo, as an example, is a company that is very design centric and design thinking forward. Things like that are really important to to educate us. So the more reading that we do, the more time that we invest in ourselves to to gain that knowledge, not waiting for people to tell us what to do, not waiting for our companies to say, you know, we want you to go to this class and learn this. But for us to have the freedom And the ability to share who we are and what we are and how we can grow our organizations in ways that are more meaningful than what they are now is paramount. And sometimes that's not just an industrial design thinking. It's a psychological thinking. It's a philosophical thinking. It's understanding philosophically why Kant and others are so... um relevant today with you know understanding our own ontological and phenomenological constructs and you know what do we believe why do why do we believe that why why am i using the words that i'm using right this moment to talk to rob you know during this time i i have to find ways to stop and think about those things and it becomes laborsome and tiresome and i'm not the like party the you know the party favorite kind of guy because I'd like to get deep very quickly. But I think we're in a time and a space right now that we kind of need to do that, you know?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, we really do. And, you know, I feel like we've but scratched the surface with our conversation, Jason, and I'd love to keep the conversation going and maybe you and I can brainstorm off air about maybe a topic that excites us both that we could maybe rant on sometime in the future. I hope maybe you'd be up for that. It would be an honor. But awesome. No, that would be excellent. Well, the laundry list of books to read grows and our time has come to an end, but I really, really do appreciate this widely ranging and diverse conversation, Jason. And I want to thank you again and look forward to speaking.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you so much, Rob. You're doing a very wonderful job. And this is something that is going to be prosperous for future generations to reflect on and say, who were the people back in that timeframe that were stepping up saying, we need to change the way we think, we need to grow and be different. And I believe what you're doing here is going to be one of those resources that really shows critical thinking and the ability to dig deep and understand who we are. So thank you.
SPEAKER_02:Awesome. Well, we'll keep it going. And you all out there, thanks for listening. You have been a monumental part in keeping this going. And I appreciate your thoughts, Jason. It definitely keeps me going in the world and making this happen. So this is Designing in the Wild, another episode. We'll keep it going. Thanks again.
